Special Series: Journey of Recovery – Interview with Michael McManus

The Journey of Recovery interview series highlights the stories of Montanans with lived experiences of trauma, substance use and mental health struggles and who are on the path of recovery. These interviews share how people can move forward and empower others to do the same.

In this episode, Mountain Pacific’s Sarah Byrnes interviews Mike McManus as he shares his experience as a veteran using recovery services and his work to provide recovery services through the Veteran’s Navigation Network. He also talks about the courage it takes to ask for help.

Transcript

Sarah Byrnes: 0:02

Announcer, one chapter does not define a person's whole story. Welcome to our journey of recovery series where we talk with Montanans who have lived experience of trauma, substance use and struggles with mental health, about where they are now the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, or SAMHSA defines recovery as a process of change through which individuals improve their health and wellness, live a self directed life and strive to reach their full potential. Join us to learn about community members in recovery as they share their story and the steps they are taking to help others on their journey. You Well, thank you so much for joining me and doing this interview today. And I just wanted to start off with a quick introduction, if you could.

Michael McManus: 0:52

Yeah, sure. So. Mike McManus, I'm the program manager for veterans navigation network. We're a veteran nonprofit in Billings Montana, but if we I mean help veterans nationwide, I mean primarily Montana and northern Wyoming, but we've helped veterans nationwide. Originally from mile city, Montana, but I was gone for 33 years, you know, coming back to visit family and that kind of thing. But retired from the Air Force, worked in the private sector for a little bit, was very fortunate enough to find my calling, which was as a County Veteran Service Officer in California for Ventura County, California, we had 40,000 veterans and about another 10,000 active duty guard and reserve and it was basically helping All of them and their families, you know, get connected with federal benefits, state benefits. But a lot of, you know, local nonprofit, faith based, that kind of thing. So anyways, very fortunate there, but in August of 2020, right in the middle or June of 2020, right in the middle of the world, you know, going crazy. Moved here with my California wife, so she's still getting used to Montana, but took 18 months off. Needed a break and but I got involved with organizations like dog tech buddies, so they do psych service dogs for veterans, horses, bears, healing, great equine therapy in the Billings area. But then was fortunate enough to get hooked up with Blake Furman, who's the founder, an executive director for veterans navigation network, and I've been working for VNN for the last four years. So that's kind of me in a nutshell.

Sarah Byrnes: 2:40

That's great. Thank you. Yeah, I was gonna say Veteran Service is a little it's near and dear to my heart of an older brother who was 82nd airborne, and then he went directly into the National Guard when he got out after he was stop lost in Afghanistan, so he was in Iraq for the first elections. And, yeah, he's got a lot of stories, but it's taken a long time for him to open up about them.

Michael McManus: 3:07

Yep, yeah, that that's fairly, you know, typical. And you know, as far as, like, not, you know, necessarily, talking to or, you know, telling his story, if you will. I mean, I spent 19 months in Korea, which was a long time, pretty real, but nothing like Yugoslavia, which was back in 99 and just doing some site surveys and looking at where we could put people in planes and things like that. Some were in some really nice locations, and some were in not nice locations at all. Then, of course, when the war started, and, I mean, just yeah, some pretty horrendous stuff. And then Kuwait and Iraq, you know when oh two, and then oh three. So yeah, I get, you know where it's coming from, and that's who we work with on a daily basis as veterans. And, you know, certainly seven service members. And being in Montana, it's primarily some Air Guard, but a lot of Army Guard, yeah, but the family members as well. So yeah, we, we, we keep pretty busy.

Sarah Byrnes: 4:09

I'm sure you do. Yeah, absolutely, when you meet new people, I think it's probably different, a little bit different when you're like a military service person, and I know that there's been a sordid history with coming back from different wars and conflicts, with how people in the United States like React, or the public react, basically. So what, what kind of reactions do you get when you tell them about your history or your and your experiences?

Michael McManus: 4:37

Yeah, me and you're right. It is very interesting. You know, you listen to our I mean, my dad is Vietnam area. Didn't serve in Vietnam. He served in the Army and whatnot, and came back and he was landing in, well, first San Francisco, you know, of course, they told him, don't wear your uniform and stuff like that. And he said, Yeah, wrong. He wore his uniform. He says he he. Didn't really experience any issues there, because they kept, you know, everyone kind of, you know, the GIs that were coming back, separate from everyone else, as much as I could. And when he came into Montana, he said there were no issues. So I think it's, you know, that's great, just certain locations in the US, probably the same ones that, or maybe those a little less patriotic even today, but that's Yeah, neither here nor there, so, but I think really, you know, we've come a long way after the Gulf War, you know, had the big parade, you know, and everything was done back in 91 and I think that's when things started to change in some ways for the better, some ways not quite so much. Because you figure, you know, Gone were the days of the huge standing armies, you know, just in general. I mean, we reduced a lot of our troop strength. Certainly no more, you know, drafts and things like that. So I think the American, you know, public appreciates and respects the military, you know, by and large, but I think they don't necessarily understand what that means. Because now, basically, you know, for the last 25 years, it's definitely been that all volunteer force of 4 million ish people that have just been deployed again and again and again. And I don't, I think we're just really coming to understand what that actually means. And even though people are, you know, appreciative of the service, you know, you get busy with your own life and and the dog to the vet and the kids to school and the car to oil change and things like that. And you really don't necessarily take time to consider it, unless you have any skin in the game, you know, like yourself, where you've got a family member who had served in the military. And I always view, you know, Memorial Day is kind of that gage on just that public sentiment. And, I mean, for decades now, it's really been about the three day weekend and the barbecues, and not about the true meaning of, you know, Memorial Day. I mean, I really think it should be on a, you know, a Wednesday during a school year. And, you know, the the schools are let out and they attend, you know, the different memorials and different things like that, I think, to really, you know, bring home the point that, hey, this is the real meaning behind Memorial Day and things like that, you know. And some people will even say, you know, Happy Memorial Day. And it's, I mean, I try to remember the sentiment behind it. And nothing happy about Memorial Day. Anyone who's in the service, many people who are you know in the service lost someone or many someones. So yeah, not exactly a happy day. It's nice that most of America can, you know, celebrate with, you know, baseball games and barbecues, and that's great, because that's what, you know the military is there to guarantee, is that, you know, life goes on Back on the home front kind of a thing. But it would just, you know, it would be interesting. Or maybe, you know, if the American public knew what actually was, you know, goes into serving in the military, whether it says the member or as a child, and certainly as a spouse, supporting that military member.

Sarah Byrnes: 8:29

Yeah, my brother has a memorial bracelet he wears that has the names of the Fallen dress. Yeah, from his group when he was over in Afghanistan. Yeah, so. And I know he posts their military photos every year, and I try to share it to kind of like you were saying, like, show people what it really is. He's, yeah, that's, well, you know, his day for that, yeah,

Michael McManus: 8:52

oh yeah for, I mean, absolutely. I mean Armed Forces Day, hey, you know, go out and thank a member for for serving our veterans day. Sure, you betcha, but yeah, Memorial Day just a little different story. Although I do have to admit, this year we had a great group here locally in Billings. Wow. Actually was the the Billings Rotary, but Ken Callahan and his hoodies for heroes, and they say we're going to have a Memorial Day parade. And was like a parade a memorial day. But you know, the more I came to kind of, I mean, the community, it was turned out amazingly, and they dedicated this wonderful monument and things like that to our Iraq and Afghan killed in action. But it was kind of almost that celebration of life type of a thing that even though, yes, I mean, we miss them, and certainly, you know, their families certainly do, but really, you know, we read their names, we remember them, and by doing so. They're not really they're not really gone, if you will. You know you die once, when you physically pass you die a second time when maybe you know the memory starts to fade, but when people you know no longer can recall your name, you know you're truly dead, and that's not the case at all with you know, certainly, you know, in Billings reading the names of the 3839 that you know were killed in Iraq, Afghanistan. And you know, as long as we remember their names, you know they they live on. So it was, it was actually a very poignant and very meaningful Memorial Day parade. And who would have thunk.

Sarah Byrnes: 10:43

yeah, that's cool. Yeah, that's great.

Michael McManus: 10:45

Yeah, it was very good, you know. And of course, you know, afterwards, yes, the, you know, the free baseball game and everything else you've got all that. But yeah, I think it definitely meant a lot to everyone that attended, especially those families. Yeah, it was pretty cool.

Sarah Byrnes: 10:58

So you said that you you were in the military for a long time, and then and you came back and kind of found your place. Were there any recovery services that you used when you first got out of the military that really impacted you?

Michael McManus: 11:12

You Well, I retired in 1980 1987 I came in in 1997 retired in May of 2007 but even that, you know, you think about like, oh my gosh, that's, it's been a while. You know, it's interesting because it's military culture. You just don't, you don't seek help for any number of reasons. And it was weird because even though from 2010 through 2020 I was a County Veteran Service Officer, and I'm referring veterans to the Vet Center, to VA healthcare or other, you know, behavioral health related providers, you know, echoing therapy, all of this kind of stuff. Hey, you got, you know, you need to do this. And then we'll, we'll kind of the other part of that is, hey, we're going to get you compensation for that PTSD or that TBI, as well as all the physical stuff. And yet, I'm not doing it myself. And, I mean, when I had come, I mean, I had, you know, the Dear John letter during, you know, was it may have all three, you know, kind of a thing. So, alright, that sucks, came back, got divorced, that kind of thing. PCs, changed, you know, moved permanent bases. Went from hill or Air Force Base in California, in Utah to port Wayne to Navy base in Ventura, California, doing so with the Seabees, Navy Seabees, and talking with fellow vets and helping them out, and not helping myself, Basically, and my future wife. Now, wife was like, You need to get your together. Or, you know, there will be another ex, you know, Mrs. McManus kind of a thing. And so I, you know, eventually, and I knew exactly who to reach out to. And I mean, because I sent other veterans to but, you know, so, yeah, I eventually reached out to the Vet Center in Ventura, California. And, you know, Vet Centers are part of the VA kind of, sort of, they fall within VA healthcare, but they're their own entity. You don't even have to be enrolled in VA healthcare to use them, because really they would, I mean, you could be on active duty and use a Vet Center. Of course, that's because far too many veterans die by suicide. But anyway, yeah, started going to the Vet Center. Knew everyone at the Vet Center, because we'd seen them work together and that kind of thing. So that was, you know, they're like, You sure? You know, we could do a you could see it. We could refer you out to a community provider, someone you didn't know. I said, heck, you know, what the heck? So yeah, started going there and seeing my counselor. She was amazing. Would call me on my when I needed to be but work through stuff didn't allow me to minimize things because of which I think is pretty typical for vets, where they minimize their experience, you know, because someone else had it worse than them, which may very well be the case, but you still went with, you know, what you went through, and it most definitely had an impact on you. But yeah, I had to learn where, you know, not to minimize the impact on me. But anyway, that's kind of where it started. And there was, you know, certainly talking to had a really good psychiatrist through the VA. He was a. A Navy. But I didn't hold it against him. He was actually a navy flight surgeon and Navy Reserves. And so he really got the, you know, the clinical aspect of it, but also the military aspect of it, and was able to bring those through and not very, you know, few providers have that even within the VA, but he certainly did, and was instrumental in just explaining PTSD and the physical effects on the brain, and you know, the really, the importance of sleep restorative sleep, not just, you know, falling asleep or taking a nap and things like that, where your brain actually does not, you know, enter kind of slow wave length and actually restore itself, because most vets are operating at, you know, that adrenaline junkie fuel, you know, level or whatever, and there's never any rest, and you cannot operate it at that level for extended periods of time. It's helpful when you need it, but when you no longer need it, yeah, it's not helpful, and you literally will just wear yourself out. So anyway, he, he was phenomenal. There's all the physical stuff, of course, it comes from service and that. So you just, you know, layer that on top of whatever, maybe mental health stuff you might have, or substance use, because that's, of course, our favorite way to cope is, you know, with drinking and that kind of thing. And, you know, but I was, I was fortunate, because I found, you know, coming originally from Montana, and growing up for a little bit of my life on a cattle ranch during Joliet in Columbus, and my grandfather really instilling the love of horses and that therapeutic value that horses bring and and knowing that, and you know, was fortunate enough, There's a really good range of Hope equine therapy there in Ohio, California. But I also volunteered at a horse rescue up there, California, coastal horse rescue. They just did, I mean great things. And I just when I came here, you know, I was seeking out those horse people, if you will. And that's where that horse of spirits healing and a great program here, close to Billings, it was just, you know, very fortunate. And I moved from the Vet Center there in Ventura to the Billings vet center here, very fortunate to have just an excellent counselor, therapist, whatever the case might be, who, after 25 years of service, he left us all, but, you know, so I've got a new counselor, but after 25 years, he had definitely earned his burgers and wish him all the, all the, all the best. But it was still like, Damn, you know, yeah, he was, but that's, you know, hey, that's, that's, that's life, that's the way it goes. So, but, yeah, so the Vet Center is very helpful, as well as those kind of ancillary, or, you know, not those primary means for mental health, you know, like the equine therapy and things like that, art therapy, yeah, just those kinds of things.

Sarah Byrnes: 18:24

I sympathize. It's, it's hard when you find someone good that you really connect with. It's hard when, yeah, it's hard when they're you want the best for them, but you're also sad

Michael McManus: 18:35

Exactly, yeah, yeah, good luck. But, yeah, anyway,

Sarah Byrnes: 18:40

So in coming back, I know you said you were pointing people in the right direction for services, but not necessarily doing it yourself. Was there anyone that you saw come back and like had really had a good experience that kind of changed the way you were looking at it for yourself?

Michael McManus: 18:59

Well, there were many people who, you know, were going like to the, you know, the Ventura Vet Center, and would just rave about their counselor and things like that. So I knew what, you know, I probably should be doing this, like, oh, I don't have time. Or, you know, I can handle it, you know, type of a thing. And it's interesting, because I don't know how many, you know, we helped just a lot of Vietnam era vets. And that was another group that really helped me. Was a Vietnam vets of Ventura County, just some really, really good guys, you know, talking to them, and, you know, listening to what they had gone through for, well, some of them for decades. Or, you know, you have the spouse in your office, and you're talking about different things about what you know you're going to work on, as far as maybe a disability comp claim. And, you know, the vet will say, Yeah, you know, I think I've handled things pretty good, you know. And the wife looks at him like, What are you, you know, sometimes, you know, a few, a slap on the shoulder and a few, you know, whatever you know, you sort of put us through hell. I mean, the kids were scared of you. We didn't know if you'd be, you know, just all that kind of stuff. And that's like, oh my gosh, you know, because we can rationalize just about anything over time. So, you know, they kind of that particular group. And then just my counselor and whatnot, and a lot of other folks, you know, was like, yeah, it's, it's, it's time. And then, of course, you know, my wife, you know, saying you need to, you need to work on some things. There was a lot of, a lot of rage, you know, especially when triggered, and I didn't even necessarily know, I mean, I could, I wouldn't even necessarily feel the build up. It was just Yeah, boom, and, and then afterwards, not during, but then afterwards, it's like, wow, that was really stupid. Or, you know, that could have, I mean, we could have got her, or any number of things like that. And it's like, okay, you know, it's, it's, yeah, I need to work on this so. And still, oh yeah. And

Sarah Byrnes: 21:20

I was gonna say, a lot of times those situations come out of your control. I mean, just from watching my brother, I I feel like I could say that, yeah, I've, like, felt terrible when something's happened. It was out of everyone's control, and it triggered him. So,

Michael McManus: 21:36

oh yeah, for sure. Well, and that's, you know, I also knew, you know, because I was involved in Veterans Treatment Court there, which was kind of, it's basically, you know, vets with service related traumatic brain injury, PTSD, things like that. Who then have, you know, DUI, or maybe a DV, or an assault, or, you know, something like that, brandishing a firearm. Like to brandish it. Usually it's not used in the commission of anything, because who knows better than a vet, what actually happens if you fire it? But did that for nine years, and a lot of times it was not those veterans. It wasn't their second or third chance. They've had plenty of chances, but it was most definitely going to be probably their last chance before they got into an accident and hurt themselves or killed themselves, or, God forbid, someone else, or DV situation, that where there was just, you know, too much violence involved, which is, I mean, just about any, any DV situation, there's too much violence involved, regardless of the level. But, and he was able to do some amazing things, because they had to get treatment. That was a whole idea of, you know, kind of the carrot and the stick you get treatment. You follow your the treatment plan, what the team comes up with. And I was on the team along with, you know, about five, six other people. You get the treatment you need, and whatever other things that go along with that. And you can eventually have that, you know that charge expunged, or whatever the case might be, but really the main thing is, you've learned how to cope, certainly more positively. You've had to take responsibility, too for your own actions that, yeah, whatever you know occurred in the service and what you're dealing with now, that can be a mitigating factor, but it is certainly not something that would it doesn't change what happened. You still have to take responsibility for it. And veterans navigation network, we've got a good guy that goes into our Veterans Treatment Court here. They call it camo, as well as our detention facility, largest one in Montana and outside the prison, and really works with our veterans that are in, you know, kind of a similar situation, trying to help them out. So I saw, you know, some of the, you know, you go to one of those graduations, and there's not a dry eye in the room, because you know what that veteran had well, one get an idea on what they went through to begin with, and certainly what they had to accomplish to come out the other end of that treatment program. And it's truly remarkable. And it's kind of like, you know, they can do it. I can do it. We can do it. No one. You may think you're out there by yourself, you know, on an island, but that's not at all the case. And I mean, the service is not one where you necessarily ask for help that it's, you know, it is okay to ask for that help, because you're, you are not the only one that's going through whatever the case is. And. That it's okay to ask for help. I It takes a lot more courage to, you know, seek that help than to try to go through it on your own. And that's what we kind of, you know, try to convey to veterans, is takes a lot of strength to ask for help. And because, again, there's that accountability piece. And, yeah, we can talk about whatever happened, what you're dealing with, and try to get you, you know, some whatever that help might look like, but you know, whatever the resulting behaviors are, yeah, you're gonna have to take some accountability for those as well. So there might be a little bit of that as well. So yeah, it's complicated. But, yeah, as long as you're not trying to do it alone, you're gonna work through it. And, you know, it's a shame, I've got, I don't know, I got, all kinds of but the different bracelets and on this one here, unfortunately, their first surviving spouses of vets who have died by suicide the last year, year and a half that, you know, working with the surviving spouses, six, seven of them. And these are young widows. I mean, they're like, 30 years old, 33 years old, and they've got kids that are two years old, and maybe, you know, six, nine years old, stuff like that. And I the with that vet, you know, almost invariably, maybe there's, I mean, there's people certainly knew that something was, you know, the vet had issues, if you will, but they didn't even know how how to address those, or how to ask. And usually, being direct is the best way to ask. I mean, you're not talking to some sunflower, you're talking to a veteran. So you can, you can ask him you think about killing yourself or whatever, and and because you figure for every, every single one of these bracelets, so you're looking at about 135 people that are impacted by that one suicide. And then when you look at a state like Montana or even Wyoming, for that matter, you being in Laramie. But Alaska, we rotate 123, because, frankly, we like to shoot ourselves, and that's got to stop. And it's there's a lot that goes in. There are a few things we won't be able to address elevation and, you know, the number of dark days and seasonal all that stuff. But there's a lot that we can do. Certainly around stigma is big part. Ask for help. There are resources out there. There are people that are willing to help. Obviously, you're more challenged. I mean, Wyoming. I mean, if you look at the Rocky Mountain states, which is where, you know, that's the number one region, these are all huge states you know that are resource poor. In a lot of areas, you've got some hubs like Billings. Montana's a hub for just about everything, from Costco to sports, concerts, medical, you name it. But boy, you get 100 miles outside of Billings. And wow, there's not a whole lot out there. And certainly, same thing in Wyoming, Alaska. I mean, even more so so, you know, but that's where you have to rely on that network even more. And so anyway, before I go off on too much of a tangent, though, I mean, it's really, you know, if, if you want to isolate, easy to do in these states, but you're not alone. So there are people out there that can help. Sometimes we just have to be creative in what that help looks like, just because the distance is involved in everything else.

Sarah Byrnes: 28:30

Yeah, I learned last year, maybe two years ago, about the 988, the new suicide prevention hotline, and how they have that separate, a whole separate extension for just veterans. And that's, I mean, that's telling, if anything, on how many people, and that, that people, the veterans, are not alone and needing help, and, yeah, and that they need, and maybe they might want a specific type of help, or, like you said, someone they can connect with. And I think that's that's going, that's part of the way to helping. Yeah, helping anyway, yeah, because you can text, you can call, you can go online. Oh yeah. So I thought all that was great, especially for rural and frontier areas, like, oh yeah. Montana, yeah.

Michael McManus: 29:10

Well, and that, you know, that you bring up really good point. You were talking, you know, rural and urban stuff. Like, there's so many places in Montana that, I mean, we'd have to have a major population explosion to get to urban I mean, we're talking frontier kind of things with the number or, you know, the lack of people per square mile, and things like that. And, you know, there's technology is something that we have to leverage and telemed, you know, may not work for everybody, but in some cases, it may be all you have, and it's certainly a lot better than others, but not if you don't have connectivity. So here are some things that, you know, VNN is looking as far as like, basically vehicles and satellite, you know, and basically meeting these vets where they're at. So, okay, maybe they don't have connectivity, but we can bring it to them, you know, kind of a thing, I think. It's been, always one of the biggest issues, whether it's in California, where we had a fairly population, you know, dense and yet you still had people who never heard of you, you know, kind of a thing to a place like Montana, you know, where, okay, maybe I understand why you haven't heard of these resources, but we still need to get that word out there, and whether it's, you know, Montana two on one, where you can just, you know, Montana two on one.org, go online and search for any number of things, from housing to maybe elderly services or legal or whatever, which ideally, because being in, and it's definitely something I stress is, you know, let's try to get ahead of these things, or actually in front of them, you know, before someone gets the point where crisis is where they're at, and maybe suicide is an option. And, you know, Montana two and one. And really, though, I mean, that's a great resource, but just being connected, and that's something that we try to do through our networks is just that connection, whether it's kind of a formal, you know, hey, we're gonna It's a peer mentorship connection, or, Hey, it's just a fun event. We're throwing axes and eating pizza or whatever the case might be, or having a holiday party, or hey, you know, it's an outreach event. And yes, we're helping, we're talking to you and get you connected. But whatever it might be. It's just, you know, making people aware. And we knew that we were starting to see some successes when, you know, we started getting veterans were referring other veterans. And I think that's the biggest thing, because one, it kind of shows, Alright, hey, there's a trust level there, and you know what you're doing, but also that they're talking to each other, which is, is is huge, because that's really the only way we're going to address a lot of these things are, you know, veterans talking to other veterans about whatever it might be, as opposed to the standard we'll drink about our problems, but we won't necessarily, you know, do anything very constructive to address those particular issues. So yeah, it's kind of heartening when we've got vets talking and referring amongst ourselves and things like that.

Sarah Byrnes: 32:20

You were talking a lot about spouses helping get help for veterans, and then also just now, veterans helping veterans. I get what would you say to either a veteran who might be considering getting help or those support people who have veterans in their lives that maybe they have that Inkling like you said, some people are like, Oh, I think he had issues, but we didn't really know how to how to approach it. Yeah, I guess. What advice would you give for them?

Michael McManus: 32:49

Yeah, well, certainly, you know, for the veteran, kind of, like, what we've been talking about is you're not alone. Reach out. I mean, when you're in the service, you weren't alone. You're part of a unit, whatever size that was, you know, 500 or four whatever it might have been. You weren't alone. You're not alone now. So reach out to that buddy and not necessarily get engaged, but just touch base and let them know what's going on. So that, I think, is the biggest thing is you're not alone. And you might be surprised you start talking to your buddy and oh, wow, you're going through the same stuff or something similar. For family members, you know, a lot of times they get frustrated because their vet's not talking to them. And I understand that. I mean, if you're deploying whatever it is, you're going through the dark times, and the light, of course, is whatever you know is going to be back home, and you're not going to mix those two, and you're not going to mix those two when you get back either maybe there's some moral injury or whatever. So you're thinking, Well, I'm not going to talk to my family member because I'm ashamed. They're going to judge me, you know, all kinds of different things going on, and that can make it frustrating, you know, for the vet, but certainly for the family member as well, for that mom who, I mean, their son or daughter might be 35 years old, still their child, and they get frustrated and, you know, won't talk, or whatever, and it's so, you know, kind of helping them understand that, okay, the veteran may not talk, but there are still some things that you can do, or that we can do, you know, with that veteran, and maybe they get to a particular point where there is better communication. And again, that, you know, involves, you know, working with that vet or bringing along that family member into one of our social events, because sometimes they certainly configure, you know, feel like they're in it by themselves as well. And again, that's just not the case. So kind of having that what we call our family connection, which is kind of a. You know, you know the family, which it could be, you know, spouse or child, but could be the caregiver as well of that veteran, because it just doesn't have to be the, you know, the mental health component could be those physical conditions where you've got that caregiver caring for their, their veteran, or whatever. And could be a very demanding, very tough and helping that caregiver navigate maybe VA for potential resources, whether it's, I mean, you know something for the veteran or housing modification or vehicle modification, or what training, whatever it might be, but probably respite in a support group, most certainly, because pretty soon, that can become your whole life. And we want to make sure that, you know, no, there's there's still light outside of that, as important as it is, there's still life outside of being that caregiver to that veteran. So anyway, that's really, you know, for the family members, is you're again, you're not in it alone either. And let us connect you with some resources to kind of help with that quality of life, both for your veteran, but also for that family member as well.

Sarah Byrnes: 36:09

Well, is there anything else that you'd like to add before we wrap up here?

Michael McManus: 36:13

You know some notes? I really think you know, it's just, there's again. I mean, it takes a lot of courage to to seek help. There's people out there that are willing to give it. I mean, if you had a broken leg, you're certainly going to, you know, if someone could help carry you to your car and then help get you to the hospital. All right, you allow them to do that if you're in a particular point of crisis, you know, with some mental health or just really being overwhelmed, and you don't think that, you know, there's any way tomorrow is going to be any better. You need to talk to somebody, because you'd be amazed at just the level of help that is out there and the people that want to help. So my really last parting thing is, I was king for a day, I would ask, I would have every person in Montana take QPR or Question, Persuade, Refer. It's a suicide awareness prevention training, very simple hour, and a half depending upon the group. But really, you know question ask that person. It doesn't have to be a veteran, really, anyone you know, and you can be direct, depending upon the individual. But ultimately, it gets down to, are you going to kill yourself and then persuade Hey, you know what? Maybe we need to take a ride to the ER, or let's call 988 if you're a vet, 988 press one. But then also refer. I think a lot of people don't ask the question because they're afraid of the answer, which is understandably so, especially if it's not something you're very familiar with. But who do you refer locally that can actually help? So all I'd ask is, you know, anyone out there, if you got questions about QPR to ask, certainly VNN, and we can help you with that, because it's a great boots on the ground, grassroots level, you know, kind of thing that can save lives. Absolutely,

Sarah Byrnes: 38:22

yeah, well, thank you so much for taking your time and doing this with me. I appreciate it so much.

Michael McManus: 38:28

Yeah, absolutely, I enjoyed it. If you need anything else, just let me know, sir, thank you all right, take care. Bye, bye, bye.